DANA SHEN: Welcome everyone to today's webinar, centring children when supporting Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander families. My name is Dana Shen, I am an Aboriginal cultural consultant and I am your facilitator for today. Before we get started, I wanted to acknowledge all the lands that we meet from today, wherever you are. I want to pay my respects to the Elders past and present, the emerging leaders, the land and the waters wherever we are, and of course I will also want to pay my respects to the allies we have in the space today. Thank you for joining and wanting to learn in order to better walk alongside our people. So thank you, everyone. Before we dive into our discussion. I have a little housekeeping to go through. There will be no live Q&A as part of this webinar, however, the panellists will be taking some time off line at the end of the webinar to address some of your questions. This, along with the main session, will be recorded and will be made available on the AIFS and Emerging Minds website in about two weeks. You can submit questions via the box in the dashboard. There are also related readings and resources. The handout section of the go to webinar dashboard, and we know this is a big topic, you cannot cover everything, but we are certainly going to do our best to explore a range of different topics today. Before I go any further, I want to recognise and acknowledge those who have lived experience of any of the topics we discuss today. We want to acknowledge systems have hurt people, and also acknowledge how people have made it through. So many people get through and do amazing things in their lives, so we wanted to recognise you and your expertise. We will be talking about child experience and voice, and at times highlight where this doesn't exist and it doesn't happen well enough. So take care of yourself, because sometimes there are some hard stories to listen to. So please do whatever you need to. Let me introduce the topic again for all of us. Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children are overrepresented in nearly all statutory services, including child protection, out-of-home care, and the youth justice system. In the lead-up to Reconciliation Week, it is an important discussion held with Emerging Minds on how to centre children's experiences, concerns and aspirations for the future. The theme for National Reconciliation Week 2025 is 'Bridging Now to Next'. I reflect the connection between past, present and future, causing all Australians to step forward together to look ahead and continue the push forward, guided by past lessons. Today, I would like you to consider this for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children. How do we learn from the past, and also provide real opportunities for children and young people to have pride? To know who they are? And to have hope for the future? That's what this is about for today. One thing I also wanted to recognise is that we don't have children and young people on the panel today. This takes time, it takes support to do that in the right way. And I also want to acknowledge that we have adults on the panel who have done this. They've done this in their personal and in their professional lives, so we will be speaking to how that works. So, their full bios are available in the handouts tab, but it is my great pleasure to welcome Commissioner Jacqueline McGowan-Jones, Nicole Hucks, and Bec Turner to the panel today. Welcome all of you. Before we get started, it would be really lovely to hear from each of you about who you are, and what you bring to the panel today. And not the things that are in your CV, but you as a human being. What brings you here? What have you lived that's actually brought you to the place where you are now?  So, Bec, I wonder if we could start with you?  

BEC TURNER: Sure. Hi, Dana, hi everyone. I am a mum and a stepmum to 3 gorgeous Pitjantjatjara children aged 7, 9 and 14. I am also an aunty, and alongside my husband, I do my best to support my family to grow in their culture, but also acknowledge my place as a non-indigenous parent of Aboriginal children. So in our family, we do have several generations of removal and disconnection from family, culture and Country, and this does impact our children's ability to connect with their cultural identity. Today, I really appreciate the opportunity to share from this perspective some of the things that we strive to do as a family to support and nurture our children as they grow.  

DANA SHEN: Thank you, Bec. Nicole, it would be great to hear a bit about you.  

NICOLE HUCKS: Good afternoon, everyone. Nicole Hucks here, I am a Larrakia Wadjigan woman from the Top End and Arrernte, Anmatjere and Kaytetye from the southern end of the Territory. I am a mother of two young girls, aged four and six. I work full-time, currently working as general manager of Aboriginal people organisations Northern Territory. I am a qualified social worker in a background with child welfare for the past 20 years. My professional and personal experience is that living, working amongst Aboriginal family and community, I have a vested interest in ensuring that our children are the ones that get the best start in life, and as a mother that I support my kids to get the best start in life. That includes pushing and advocating for opportunities for our kids. I've also had experiences in terms of child protection, both efficiently as a child protection practitioner, and also personally with family members. As Bec pointed to, you have that experience in our family context.  

DANA SHEN: Thank you very much, Nicole. And Commissioner Jacqueline.  

JACQUELINE McGOWAN-JONES: I am a Arrernte and Warumungu woman from the Northern Territory, Alice Springs. I am third-generation Stolen Generation. I am the eldest of 10 children. My father spent most of my life in prison and died in custody. I have 21 kinship and foster children and six homegrown children, and I am currently the Commissioner for children and young people, which was my dream job, because my whole life has been about how we put our children and young people. They are not just our future, they are our right now. I'd like to point out the beautiful artwork behind me. I am at an Aboriginal school this morning, and the kids did this wonderful artwork behind me to welcome me into their school. I have worked in child protection, education, Indigenous suicide intervention, I was the CEO of Thirrili. I lost my daughter, my niece and my mum to suicide. I'd like to make sure that systems don't continue to fail our kids the way that they have done, for time immemorial, since colonisation.  

DANA SHEN: Thank you, Jacqueline. Thank you for sharing all that, that wealth of experience that you have gone through as well. Thank you. As you can hear, everyone, you've got some very deep and different perspectives that are going to be able to be shared. I want to start at the very beginning. What does it mean for a child to have a voice, to have an experience that is shared? What does it sound like? What does it look like? What does it feel like? Bec, as a non-Aboriginal parent, I wondered if you could share a bit about what that means for you, first?  

BEC TURNER: I think it's individual. Having a voice can mean a lot of different things. It can mean speaking, expressing themselves, the experiences they are going through and that they demonstrate to us, their behaviours, their gestures, and even them not wanting to say anything. I guess I feel for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children, particularly in disconnection. To express themselves and identify themselves within their culture can be challenging, and that is in our family's experience. My husband and I, we work extremely hard to try to not continue to perpetuate the intergenerational trauma that has happened, and that has been present, still is present in our family, our extended family. So for us, it is about intergenerational healing and finding ways to relearn and experience culture and identity that is inherently our children's right to have. So I guess what this looks like and feels like and sounds like is that the way that we intentionally seek out the opportunities for our children to feel connected, and we don't live on their great Nanna's Country, and we are creating avenues for them to have meaningful access to their kin, Country and culture. But we connect with mob where we live. We connect with Nungas here in South Australia, and our kids know the importance of this, and continue to grow in their curiosity of this. I'll tell you something really sweet that happens just this morning. I overheard a really beautiful conversation between two of our kids, and you might be able to hear I have been a bit sick, and I was actually losing my voice. I have been talking about speaking at this webinar, and one of my kids asked "Will you be able to do this webinar today? I'm a bit worried, your voice doesn't sound too good." And our littlest said, really seriously, "Do you know who asked mum to do this?" "No," "It was Aunty Nancy, so she has to do this." So shout out to Aunty Nancy Jeffrey who is behind the scenes today. It's just beautiful to me that we have this connection, so our kids know and respect their Aunties and their Elders, even when we do live so far away from them. So I hope that has spoken a bit to what you asked there, Dana.  

DANA SHEN: Thank you so much. Nicole, I wonder if I could come to you now. What does it look and feel like, voice, experience of children? What have you done in that work, and how have you seen that?  

NICOLE HUCKS: I think children's voices and providing the space and the place for children's voices is imperative. When children are able to voice their perspectives, their ideas, their wants and their needs, it's very powerful. Too often, us adults, you know, good intentioned mothers, aunties, cousins, we often tend to think we know what is best for kids, or we think we know what our kids want and need. But when we allow our kids to have that voice, it is just so powerful and enlightening every time I sit down and have a yarn, whether it is in my work or at home with my girls, to hear them talk up. I go, "Geez, these kids are just too deadly and they are going places with that confidence," having a bit more of that confidence to speak up.  

I think as a practitioner, and having worked in child protection, that's when I think throughout my career, I think that's where it has been most imperative. Our children are removed at rates higher than their non-Indigenous counterparts, and for us, what has been highlighted before, the intergenerational trauma that our families experience, we often see our kids in out-of-home care and removed from families. In care planning in a statutory sense in trial protection, it's really important, where possible and at an appropriate time in the child's life, to allow them to be part of care planning and to assert and determine what it is they need in terms of their education, their support, who their primary care should be, what activities they should be engaging with socially, recreationally and culturally that's a really critical thing. As Bec described, that real need to ensure that our kids maintain a connection to their culture and grow strong in their identity. It is so critical not only to their social and emotional well-being, but it impacts on their physical well-being. So, look, I think when children's voices are heard, it is so powerful. I previously worked as the NT Children's Commissioner. I was with the Office of the Children in the Territory for two years. Over that time, I was able to engage in a number of formal consultations with children and young people. Usually based on a particular subject matter more recently it was one on racism. Trying to facilitate a child-centred approach and response wherever they can is critical.  

DANA SHEN: Thank you, Nicole. I do want to do a follow-up question because I don't want to lose track of something that Bec said earlier. She was talking about the importance of understanding intergenerational trauma, but also intergenerational healing, and also mentioned the complexity of identity. Understanding who we are, given the history we have had here of colonisation. Given your work as a social worker and in child protection, I know from my own background that there are young people at times, children as well, who are not always wanting to reconnect. They are not always wanting to find out about family or identity, because of the history they have had. I just wondered if you could talk a bit to how to do that. Because we hold these two things in tension, the desire to have our people find their way home, and then the rights of the individual child, about how they do that. Nicole, I wondered if you had any views about how to work with that? I know it is a big question for people.  

NICOLE HUCKS: Definitely. That is unfortunately a real scenario for some of our children and young people who find themselves away from family and often in care. For me, we see children go through the care system and exit the care system often not any better than when they entered the system, and often worse due to ongoing trauma or traumas might be exposed to whilst in the care system unfortunately. But in my experience, having worked with both children and then young adults who have transitioned out of care, doing some case management for some of those young people, there is often there is a little want to know who they are deep down. And as I said previously, and my answer to the first question, it is at the right time and place for the kids. We need to provide them with the opportunity and the platform, because that's really critical. There is no right time to talk to anyone around who they belong to, where they belong, what Country they are from. But I think having that information and being ready to have those conversations, whether it is in a personal or professional context. I have nieces and nephews who often struggle with their Aboriginal background and heritage and the connections. They often come to me and asked me questions, "Who is this family? Are we related to that mob?" So I am always ready and willing to provide them with that information and to connect those dots for them, because I think it's critical not only that they understand who they are related to, and hopefully they don't get into a romantic relationship with!  

But where they come from, where that lineage is, their ancestry. I was up late last night doing a bit of family tree mapping and connecting some more dots and Ancestry DNA is great but it opens up a whole can of worms, and I am now trying to connect some more dots. I think it is just the time and the place when our children and young people are ready, that we are ready to support them on their journey. If we don't have the information, we support them to get that information.  One little quick example, I know I am taking a bit of time, but I was working with a young man in Youth Justice Victoria, and he had been disconnected. He was close with a Koori grandmother, Aboriginal grandmother. He had been running amok for a few years and over the years he had become disconnected from his family who were living in regional Victoria. While I was engaging with him at the Youth Justice facility, he had a real knack for painting and he had one of the Koori Elders working with him doing Aboriginal art. He started to engage but previously he hadn't wanted to know about his heritage or his family. Over the space of about two years, this young man managed to make a trip back to his town, his rural town, where he grew up for the majority of his childhood, and reconnect. And the difference that I saw in that young man just over that time that he reconnected, you know, he became full of life, he had aspirations, he thought about the future and where he was going to go in his life and what he wanted to do in terms of further training and an employment pathway. It was just really, really lovely and heartening to see that journey for that particular young man.  

DANA SHEN: Beautiful. Thank you, Nicole. Now to you, Jacqueline. How about you? What does it mean to you? What have you seen? What does it look like when you hear children's voice?  

JACQUELINE McGOWAN-JONES: The thing we know is that our children and young people are the best arbiters of what they need. And it's not just hearing their verbal voice, it's about watching their mannerisms, it's about watching their behaviours, it's about giving them the right opportunity to speak. As I said, I am at a school today, and we are doing our biggest survey, so up to 20,000 students this year, for the speaking out survey. But we recently administered the survey into the youth detention facility. The staff were telling me there was one young boy, didn't want to do the survey, wandering around the room for about 20 minutes. Doesn't want to sit down, the other boys are sitting down and they are doing it. And then finally he decided he would do the survey. And he asked to come and sit down and do the survey. The thing wasn't to try and push him into doing it. The thing was to say, "That's OK, bub. This is your opportunity, it's about you, there are no right or wrong answers, but if you don't want to do it, you don't have to." So you have to work at the pace of the children you are working with. One of the most common things I talk about when we talk about, what is the behaviour, what are the physical cues ? I don't know how many families say, "Oh, there is Nanny Jac, go and give her a hug," and they hide behind their leg. Please don't force your child to do something they are showing you that they don't want to do. It's the same when you want to hear what they want to say, you have to look at what else is going on, not just their words. But you have to be able to make a space for them to do it. So this morning, I had the best morning. I started the day in the kindergarten class with the kids there. They do a yarning circle at the start of the day, every day. And I sat down on the floor. They put two chairs down for Sharon and I to sit. But no good, we sat on the floor. Probably I am a bit old for that now, just so you know. Anyway, we sat on the floor and the kids really opened up. And we didn't force them going round the circle, "What about you, what about you?" We let them ask us questions. We gave them the space. We told them who we were. That cultural connection of ours is really important for very young children to understand who we are and that there is a connection there. So for me it's about how you connect to that child. Don't think that every child wants to talk to you. I mean I get upset when they don't want to talk because I think, "You poor little thing," you know? Then one little girl came over and gave me the biggest hug. It was the best part of my day, but I wouldn't ask them for hugs. It is not what you do. But you listen to them. You must engage with them in developmentally appropriate ways. One of the things I do when I have forums with kids is we talk to them about, we might say, for example, "What's really good about living here on this Country?" And this is all kids, not just our Aboriginal kids, this is all kids. We also have pens and paper and colouring things. We might say to them, "You can write a story, you can write a poem, you could write a song," and I have had rap songs from kids in year two and the words don't make much sense to me but they get up, they are enthusiastic and they tell us their story. So you gotta be able to do it in ways that engage them. And some of them just draw pictures and I might say, "Wow, you like living at the beach?" "Oh yeah, Miss." And when they say that, then they open up. So you have to do it in ways they will connect to. I don't have long to connect to the kids when I go somewhere, and I think I told a story yesterday, anyone who was on yesterday, I had to go to the Pilbara. That's not my Country, and I haven't spent a little time there. But one of the Elders there is a very long-time friend of mine. And I don't just want to go to the schools, I want to hear from kids who are having real difficulties, who are homeless, who are involved in the justice system, who have drug and alcohol issues etc. So, MK, can you please work that out for me through your organisation, and I will bring the feed and we will have a yarn with those kids. And that laid the path, because MK said, "This is the Commissioner but she is an Aboriginal woman, she is here, she is going to talk to you," and she helped ease that pathway for them to feel comfortable to talk to me. And we got the voices of kids we don't normally hear from.  

You know? So, food is a great thing to bring. I love taking a feed. I've been eating mud cake this morning, the school brought me mud cake. But what it feels like for me, it's just the heart ? that I am giving children an avenue to say what is not working for them, what is going on. You know? When I asked the kids here this morning, but what would be better on your Country?" "Skate park." "Do you know the government, can you tell them what to do?"  

Just a really open conversation about what they want to know. About what they need. And being open to hearing that. The importance then is to be honest about what you can do. So I say, "Well, I will tell the government what you say but sometimes they don't listen to me." Because the worst thing you can do is make a statement back to a child that we are not going to be able to live up to. And especially for our kids, like Nic was saying, that have been in out-of-home care and detention, they have had so many broken promises, it's really important not to try and overpromise. The other thing that's really important is not to put your spin on what they say. So if someone says to me, "It's not safe here," not, "Not enough streetlights?" No, "What would make it safer?" Because otherwise we are putting words into their mouths and we are not hearing what is going on for them. This morning in the yarning circle we asked them, how were they feeling today, and funnily enough a lot of kids talked about, "I'm good because I had a good sleep because I didn't have to share the bed with my brothers last night." "I'm feeling good because I had a really soft bed last night and I was warm."  One of them said it was their sister's birthday yesterday, so they had birthday cake for breakfast. We allow them to have that conversation before we delve into anything that might be more challenging. Building that connection with our kids, critical. And it's the best job in the world. Nicole knows, she was Commissioner for two years ? we love it, don't we, Nic? Because our job is to hear the voices of the kids, and that those voices are taken to service providers.  

DANA SHEN: Thank you, Jacqueline. This is lovely because Jacqueline has really gone into now how you create these experiences. So, Bec, I wonder now as a parent, in the way that you do it with your own kids, how do you create the experience for voice, for people to be heard, for children to be heard?  

BEC TURNER: I guess generally it is just showing them and telling them that their voices are important, and that means doing activities with them that are important to them in supporting their interests. Celebrating their successes and milestones, but also importantly, celebrating their efforts and the efforts that they put in. And I guess, in talking about taking sure everyone's heard, our littlest one often quietly goes along caring for everyone. You would say he is an easy kid, you know, and he doesn't cause much fuss, but he is so emotionally intelligent and intuitive. He put so much effort in to looking out for everyone and trying so hard to be helpful. He could easily just not get noticed as much as other kids, because he is just quiet and cruisey.  

My husband calls him 'little Buddha boy'. (Laughs) So I think it is important to acknowledge those little everyday efforts, and celebrate and acknowledge those, and celebrate them for being who they are, I guess. Our little one, he loves to read Dreaming stories, and he lives the ABC Kids lullabies and he loves to sing along in language that he doesn't even know. But that's something he can access, lots of people can access it. I shouldn't say everyone can. That means a lot to him, and that is the way he feels he can connect to his culture.  

For our kids, my husband has spoken about artwork being a huge way for them to express themselves, and all of our kids are really talented artists and really creative. One of our kids has recently had their artwork commissioned to be on the local netball team's bibs for the Indigenous round. So my husband arranged for them to do this and supported them, because he knew that this is how they would know how to express their cultural identity, where I think it is hard for them and other spaces in their life. I think about my nephew, so proud of him. He is really amazing at learning language. He knows about seven different languages, but recently he has been trying to learn Pitjantjatjara, and he's been trying to help his mum learn his nana's language. He's been making flashcards to help her learn. So just these beautiful little ways they find in connecting to their culture is just really important to see.  

DANA SHEN: What about you, Nicole? In your social work or commissioner work, what ways have you been able to create that place for children to be able to share?  

NICOLE HUCKS: As Bec was talking, I was kind of in Mum mode, Mum hat on, years after years as a social worker having to actively listen to others, adults, children, young people ? you just do that. It is just part and parcel of your role and what you do. But as a mum I think there is a real need, you have to be more conscious of making the time and giving the opportunity and the platform for my own girls, because we get so busy doing mum duties, mum things, day in day out, work full-time. I often say, it feels like Groundhog Day most days. Get up, get your shoes on, get your backpack, lunches in your bag, brush your hair, brush your teeth. It's like it's just this robotic time, and we are doing these robotic things, but then when we do get the opportunity, that 20 minutes because they are dressed early and they've got their teeth brushed to, in that 20 minutes, to open up the conversation and say, "What's happening at school? What are we going to do this weekend? What would you like to do?" Just talking to them and getting a feel for where they are at. And then I have found myself having to be more conscious of doing that, because I am just go, go, go as a mum. I often joke that my husband gets the quality time after school with them because I finish later than him. I go, "You have the fun time. It's me in the morning rounding them up and trying to get them out the door, counting down the clock." But yeah, I have just had to be that little bit more conscious. In work, how do we make the experience more possible for children? I feel like it needs to be done more, and as you acknowledged at the start of this webinar, we don't actually have a young person or a child on, and it's often difficult, permissions-wise, and whatnot. Just making sure we do actively invite children and young people to have their voice and say their perspectives in any way, whether it is a formal webinar such as this or in a conversation, one-on-one, or in a group setting if they are comfortable and feel supported to do so.  

DANA SHEN: Thank you so much, Nicole. And I really, really appreciate what you said is a parent about how hard that can be to make it happen. I think I want to acknowledge that for all of us online who are a parent. We are doing the best we can, we are. So I think that's so important what you've just said. Thank you, Nicole. I want to move on now to really understand a question I think is important, how do we balance the voice of children with other issues? So this could be family or community issues, this could be safety issues. How have you done that in your lives and in your work? Jacqueline, I wonder if I could come to you first? How do you think about that?  

JACQUELINE McGOWAN-JONES: So, one of the things for me is that we don't know every aspect of a child's life. We want them to be able to give us their voice. And talking about balancing needs, I am a foster mum and kinship carer with homegrown kids, working full-time. It was really important to me, especially because some of the kids we cared for were kinship but needed to be reconnected. Balancing the needs around safety and well-being, and some of our kids are at such a point when we start to interact with them that they are really exhibiting significant behavioural challenges because they haven't had the nurturing and support. And that is a cry for help. I think we often go to, "Well, they are really badly behaved." But when you are working within that child protection space particularly, we do this really badly, balancing the family need. And if we speak to a child, because often the conversation, especially when we are removing the child, is with the adults ? if you speak to the child, they will tell you who is safe. They will tell you where they want to be. They will tell you that this Aunty's great, this one is great, this one isn't. And we get a great feel for where that child will be safe. For teenagers, you have to work differently with teenagers. These girls told me last week, "No good, they are not on TikTok." But then the little one started showing me all their TikTok videos. So it's balancing that community need to have our children close so you can build the village that supports our child, but also balancing the need of the child that might need to go away to school, and how do we do that? And I think that's where centring the voice of the child is really, really important, because we often, as we said at the start, and Nic, I think you said it ? we asked the parents what is needed, they tell us all the different things, and parents say, I see it all the time, and the government is going to build a skate park, but you talk to the kids and they say they want a swimming pool. Well, bad luck, you're getting a skate park. You need to ask the children and young people what works for them. So for many of our kids that go away for boarding school, that's really great and they love it, and it works for them even though they are really homesick and they miss Country and family and community. For other kids, it is more than just homesick. They don't like it. So how do we give them an education in a space that works for them? Because you're not going to learn if you're not comfortable. If you're not happy where you are, you don't learn. So we have to always say the child's needs are paramount. But we tend to think that balancing the family's need means that we can't put the child's needs first. And we absolutely can if we speak to the child. We absolutely can. And make a space for them to have a really safe conversation with the adults in that circle. But there is always going to be challenges. Unfortunately, we are always going to have some children we have to remove for their safety. But often what we don't do is ask the child where they think they are safe. And we don't ask them that. You say "Who's your favourite aunty, if you could live in any house, which house would it be?" And they will tell you. If they are an older student, an older child, you change the language. You can do this in developmentally appropriate ways, you can use different methodologies. You can watch how the child is. And then with the family, you've got to sit down and say "You know what? Bub is a little bit worried at the moment because there is obviously some things going on at home. But they would be really happy if they went and lived with Aunty Nicole for a bit. Would that work?" So we engage everyone. Mum might be in trouble with the Aunties at the moment, so she might not want to engage with the conversation. But the way to find out how to engage is to talk to the child. So the child has to be at the centre, they have to be at the centre. Sometimes that means they get into trouble in community. It's happened to me in various jobs over my career. And especially when you work in your own community, sometimes it's much easier to work over here out of my own community, and other days it's not, I really miss being at home. But no matter what your job is that you are doing, you've got to be able to stand up for the best interests of the child. And parents do that all the time. But sometimes parents need help to do that. And if you're like Bec, Bec, the work you are doing to bring your kids home is amazing. And if you're a carer for an Aboriginal child, and you know they've had an horrific home life before you became their carer, you can't assume that everybody in the family is going to be like that. We also know the system mistakes poverty for neglect all the time. And sometimes our kids are actually safe at home, but you don't understand from your cultural lens of a four bedroom house, each kid has their own room, versus where I grew up, 10 kids in a three-bedroom house but we are all going to be in one room because the kids are safe together, or whatever, the different cultural approaches. So it's really important for the child in the centre and then work to bring others to that space.  

DANA SHEN: Thank you, Jacqueline. Nicole, is there anything you would like to add, and then I want to come to Bec. Nicole, anything in particular you would like to add?  

NICOLE HUCKS: Look, obviously agree with everything Jacqueline just mentioned and pointed to. Also I think it's always good to test what a child understands of their safety and how they feel, whether they currently feel safe. And also understanding what makes them feel unsafe or a little bit unsure, but anxious. I use that in both my professional and my personal life when I am talking with some of my nieces and nephews, "How are you feeling, do you feel supported, what do you do in a situation, who do you call?" So they will rattle off to me who it is they will call if they don't feel safe. And just hearing that and understanding that these kids have a safety net, safety mechanisms, in place I think is important. You know, we often think that safety is one thing, but for children, their perception of being safe and being loved and cared for is different. I just wanted to reflect back on one of Bec's responses about her kids and how different they are. Every kid is different. Kids are born with their own personality. Mate, I have got chalk and cheese with my two girls and the way I approach each of them, I'm still learning. I am still adjusting to be able to meet their own individual needs. How I apply myself or open and have a dialogue with one kid is very different with the other. One kid is very emotional and emotive and needs to be loved and be shown love and care and hugs and kisses. The other one doesn't need that at all. When she does, she will come to me for a hug and a kiss and cuddle. It's being able to adjust yourself and be available and flexible and meeting kids' needs on their terms.  

DANA SHEN: Thank you, Nicole. I would like to come to Bec now about this whole thing about balance. Before asking the question, just to recognise how hard that is in a family, to have balance around these things. Nobody is perfect. We will try our best. But I wanted, how do you balance various needs as well as the child's voice as a parent, Bec, of Aboriginal kids?  

BEC TURNER: It is so hard. And hearing several things that Nicole said about how different our kids are, chalk and cheese. My husband says 'salt and pepper'. They look different. One looks like me, the other looks like him and the other one is in between. But their personalities, balancing the needs between them, because we have two that are entirely different and they clash. It doesn't mean they don't love each other, but they do find it hard to be around each other and it is chaotic. And also what Nicole said about the busyness of our lives, I also work and, you know, it's trying to meet everyone's needs in the family, make sure all the children are able to have all their hobbies, their passions, everything taken care of, as well as all the day-to-day tasks that all families have, and balancing that. And then trying to, what we have been talking about, nurture their cultural identity within that. I guess, for us it's about weaving culture into their everyday experiences and their lives, you know, all the activities and values they witness from within our family and from the community around us. It's incorporating all these elements of culture where we can into that everyday experience, adding in language, artwork, the clothes we wear, the activities we do, the people we connect with. For us, it is surrounding ourselves with people whose values align and are supportive of our children's cultural identity and growth. I know there is a lot of educators in the audience today and I was going to just share about two vastly different experiences we have had with schools.  

Our kids have had the experience of being the only Aboriginal kids in their school. They know that we are connected with other Aboriginal families and Elders who live in our community, and the school is really amazing and has a local Aboriginal woman who is sort of an Aunty figure who the students all know right from kindergarten through primary school. And I just love that. I really love that our little one proudly tells his class, "She's my family!" As soon as they come in the school, "She's my family." And we know she has claimed us and it is so beautiful for us living where we do, and with the disconnection that does exist within our family, to have that. She told me the other day she was at the shops and she heard a kid from my kid's class say, "That's his grandma," "You are his grandma?" Our kids only have their nonindigenous grandparents who are still with us, so to have those claimed Nanas and Aunties to help us grow them in their cultural identity is so important. And the other different experience we have had in another school, for one of our kids, we have seen that the only Aboriginal teacher there is lumped with doing everything to do with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander culture on top of their everyday teaching role. And they will do things and, "Yes, it's Reconciliation Week next week and it's important to acknowledge and celebrate it, but we can do this all throughout the year. We don't have to just do it through that week, and in NAIDOC Week," and in other events that come up. I think the school wanted to do Wear It Yellow Day, which you may have heard of but we were puzzled when we saw that the kids just wear yellow but they don't get the donations. It is seen to be supportive of cultural identity but not really following through with actions that represent meaningful support towards the cause. And then trying to offer support or guidance and being ignored. And not being invited into the space where we probably could have contributed as a family. So it's how those offers, whether it is school or something else in the community, are accepted or ignored. We have given, I guess, what you would call tough feedback to both of these schools and it was really how it was received that tells us about what is really caring for our kids in their identity. Sorry if I have gone off topic. But I guess that's just some of the things that we have had to balance around that.  

DANA SHEN: That's great. And you have led us really well into the final question. Gee, this time has gone quick! We have got about five minutes left now. So, we need to keep the next answers relatively brief. But it would be great to hear, Bec has taken us in this direction, when we do have child's voice and experience at the front of the mind and we are really listening and we take that voice as adults and we go and do something with it, what change gets created? Jacqueline, I wonder if I can come to you first to give us any examples of where you have seen voice have a level of influence, a child's voice.  

JACQUELINE McGOWAN-JONES: Often it's not enough, from my perspective. We give child's voices to the government all the time and not necessarily does it get hurt. But where we see it, and I see it in some schools I go to where they don't have a leadership group and 10 kids get to speak to the principal.  

But where they are doing leadership at all levels, with all their classes and students, and they are listening to those students, we see the students want to be in school. When we hear the child's voice and they feel heard, they want to engage. They don't become the shrinking violet. They don't hide in the corner. In educational settings, I think I said before, I used to be the Executive Director for the Office of Aboriginal Education, and I developed an Aboriginal cultural standards framework for culturally responsible schools. What's really clear about hearing children's voices is that they feel like they are able to contribute to their own future and their own well-being. They feel like adults aren't just going, "No, do what I say, sit down, today we are doing the ABC or numeracy." Bec said her kids are the only Aboriginal kids in the school, often I used to hear from schools, "But we've only got a few Aboriginal kids so the cultural standards framework doesn't apply." Arguably, that applies even more because you probably haven't got an Aboriginal education office, you haven't got Aboriginal teachers, and the kids are feeling totally isolated. Being culturally responsible does mean you have to make a concerted effort to engage families in the school to have that voice. But for children to have a voice makes them feel more validated. They are also more likely to engage you when something is wrong. Often children don't feel like they can tell you something is wrong. They feel like they have to keep a secret. If we have got a space where their voices are heard and they know they can talk about what is going on for them, you are more likely to hear what is really going on. It improves safety for children and young people. It improves their own ability to engage and deliver on their own wisdom and experience. We talk about developmental stages, being enquiring, using imagination, all those things are supported by giving a child a voice. What we do see is when I say, for example, we did an enquiry into the youth detention centre and we interviewed 43 young kids and did a report and I took it back out. We did a child friendly version of the report, took it back and said, "This is what we told government after you had your say." They were so excited, "Where is my name?" "Remember, I told you it's confidential, your name is not in the report." They were so excited, not only that we came back to them, but so excited that what they said mattered. I said, "Yes, it did!"  

DANA SHEN: Thank you, Jacqueline. We're coming close to the end but I just wanted to give Nicole and Bec a final couple of words that you want to share that are important. Nicole, any other key message you would like to give about child voice?  

NICOLE HUCKS: Just quickly, when a child has a voice, they gain strength, they gain confidence, they gain pride. And above all else, you build their resilience just that little bit much more.  

DANA SHEN: Thank you. Bec, any final word from you? And then we will close very soon.  

BEC TURNER: So much has been said. I guess everyone, I think, in the child's world can play a part in how they make their cultural identity. You can't underestimate the power of the child through their experience of being heard and seen and understood in who they are.  

DANA SHEN: Thank you to all the panellists today, to Erin Stutchbury, Nancy Jeffrey and to AIFS. And also a reminder about the feedback survey, if you could fill that in, it would be wonderful. We look forward to seeing you at our next webinar, from the evaluation and support team at AIFS, ‘what is good research evidence and how do you find it?’ Take care, and we look forward to seeing you again soon.

DANA SHEN: Well, welcome back everyone. Uh, the panelists have taken a little bit more time to answer your questions in a Q&A, and we're going to be spending the next few moments on a couple of really interesting and big questions. So first of all, the first one, I'll read this out and I'm going to hand over to Jacqueline. The number of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children in out-of-home care in the last 20 years has increased hugely. Shouldn't we expect this number to reduce? Are our policies a good reflection of these children having a voice and that they are heard? Jacqueline, I wonder if I could come to you first.

JACQUELINE MCGOWAN-JONES: So the numbers have increased exponentially. In Western Australia, when I was heading up Aboriginal child protection, we had 47% of children in out-of-home care. Thirteen years later, it's 60%. So that's year-on-year increases. And absolutely that should have reduced. The challenge we have is the way in which systems operate. And I think I referred to this a little bit before. Where we, and it doesn't matter which child protection practice framework you use, a) they're not understanding of cultural makeup, of family and the responsibilities of how we raise our children. And b), we don't centre the voice of the child. So as I said earlier, when you're speaking to mum, she might be in trouble with aunties and nanas and says, no, they're not involved in this decision making, at the family meeting, it'll just be me. And that's not fair to the child. So we must ask the child, you know, who are the nanas, aunties, whomever. And the other thing is the confusion of poverty versus neglect. And I talk about your cultural lens. So if you grew up in a four bedroom home and you know, you might have had more than two TVs and there were two motor cars and, you know, all of those things, you had your own bedroom, you were. And then you go along and you'd be a social worker. And I don't know any social worker who thought, how do I get a job where I can take kids away from their families. So people do it with the best of intent, but their understanding, their cultural understanding is such that, you know, you should all have your own bedroom and you're going to have your own dinners, and you're all going to have this happy household where there's cupboards full of food, and then they might be in a remote community, and you haven't got a fridge in a remote community often. So you go and buy your food at breakfast time, at lunchtime, at dinner time, you might have, like when I was a carer, you might have ten kids all sleeping in the living room together because that's safe, because they're all together and you can watch them. But people see this as risk factors. They don't understand. I was in a remote community once where they were trying to say, no, this Nana cannot take these children because mum and dad live across the road and up three houses and there's no fence. It's a remote community. It's not the Hume Highway, you know. And the kids might be able to get on the road. Well, if you want to come out and build a fence, I'm sure they'd be happy. But that doesn't happen. And Mum and Dad live up there. But Nana's keeping these kids safe from mum and dad. But you don't understand because you don't understand what a community is like in an Aboriginal community. So we mistake poverty for neglect. We do not understand the cultural structure of our families and responsibilities of nannas and aunties. And mostly we don't speak to the child in developmentally and age appropriate ways, and hear their voice to understand what's going on for them, and whether that voice is their verbal and nonverbal cues, whether that voice is I really love Nanna, and I love it when I stay at Nana's house or I really love Auntie Nicole. Can I go there? We don't listen, and we make an assumption that these kids are better off. I have got to say to you, when I see children that I knew were in out-of-home care at the age of 3 and 4, and who are now 16 and 17, don't go to school, have drug and alcohol problems, are unsafe, and are a safety risk to themselves and others. That is the fault of the department. And what did you do to make the child’s life better? And that's about poor decision making right up front. And a cultural plan that says you'll go to NAIDOC once a year. What a load of garbage. Like, you know, we've really got to get better at understanding who else is in the family. Where is it safe? How do we hear the child's perspective? How do we monitor that? How do we understand the cultural context? And we will continue to see more children and more Aboriginal children in out-of-home care. And Torres Strait Islander children in out-of-home care. Whilst we don't have a good cultural understanding, but also while the frameworks for child protection practice don't align with cultural ways of knowing, being and doing, and while we continue not to engage the Aboriginal community-controlled sector holistically in caring for our children.

DANA SHEN: Beautiful. Thank you Jacqueline. So those that are, that are listening to this and particularly to the person that asked the question and others that that have these questions, really, Jacqueline, just laid out to you what's required step-by-step on a systemic level, what needs to happen. So the question back to you, our allies and our friends that are listening. How will you do this? How are you going to do this? So, Nicole, was there anything else that you'd like to add? Otherwise, I'll move on to the next question.

NICOLE HUCKS: Yeah. Thanks, Dana. Yeah. I'd just like to point to, that second part of the question, was around, should we be seeing a reduction in this? Yes, most definitely. We have a national partnership agreement on closing the gap, which has some critical targets around reducing the number of Aboriginal children in out-of-home care across this country. We have a peak Aboriginal Child Care Agency SNAICC, who monitor progress against this particular Socio-Economic target, which shows that the majority of states and territories are failing to meet this target and won't meet this target by the set date of 2031. That's some six years away. There's some big reductions that are needed over that time, and as Jacqueline has rightfully pointed to, there needs to be significant reform of child protection legislation, policy and practice to be able to ensure that our children are being assessed appropriately. And when I say appropriately to understand what is risk for an Aboriginal child when you are a non-Aboriginal practitioner, as Jacqueline said, coming with your cultural lens and understanding of what is child rearing and what is norm. For Aboriginal children and their families to better understand, what is their norm? But also, from a social work background, it's critical to understand that real point around poverty. Our families, black, white and brindle across this country are living with greater pressures, greater financial pressures. The cost of living is increasing, rental is increasing. Our families are struggling and Aboriginal families have already felt that pinch and that you know, the oversight from the child protection, the statutory service systems on them and on their child rearing. So from a social work perspective, we've got to get better at understanding and assessing what are families doing, what do they have within their means and at their disposal. Like, what is their disposable income available and how are they using that? And I think what we will find is necessarily they are struggling to, to keep their head above that poverty line, but they are trying to make and do the best for their kids. And I think we need to work with families and we need to support families to gain them access and give them referrals to whatever support programs they can access without getting involved in the statutory system, because too often the tertiary support systems that are implemented once a child or a family comes to the attention of child protection, it's too late and it's too punitive. If only we had, you know, the primary and the secondary, the more preventative services and supports available, we wouldn't see the numbers of our kids and our families in the system.

DANA SHEN: Thank you so much, Nicole. We now have another kind of complicated question. So, this will be this is very interesting. The internet and media have become vehicles for the cultural dominance of those nations and groups with economic and technological power. Teaching media literacy and critical thinking to children is important to helping them resist cultural erosion and help them value their own identity and traditions. What is your opinion? So first of all, I'm going to hand over to Nicole, and then I thought I'd really ask Bec, because the tech stuff's tricky for all of us. You know who, who, who are parents? Grandparents. And you might have a parent's view about this. So, Nicole, first of all, your opinion and thoughts on this.

NICOLE HUCKS: My opinion and thoughts are it scares the bejeebies out of me. I have, as I said, a four and a six-year-old at home. And where we're at now with accessibility to internet and accessibility to social media and social media platforms and the various forms of those. And critically, their impact and influence on our kids and our young people. It's become so evident. I walk around the streets here in Darwin, and I see children and young people doing these ones, filming themselves for TikTok or doing lives on Facebook you know, without, you know, I think in one part of me goes, oh, look at the confidence of these children. I never, I was too ashamed of to be able to film myself or put that camera looking at me. But then the other part of me goes, oh, what are they filming? Do they understand the context of what they're filming? Do they understand that can then be shared, that they don't have control over where that video or that post that they're putting up, can go and where it can be disseminated or how it can be used. So for me, I think what is important is to have these conversations with our children and young people to say, hey, whilst you're in the moment and you think it's deadly to post about that new shirt you got, or that new hair colour that you've got, think about where that's going and take a you know, our kids often live in in the moment, which is great and it's, great for them to be kids and naive. But I think we need to start as social media. And the impact is, is, becoming evident. We need to start changing our dialogue with kids to get them to try to think about the future and the impact. And, you know, hindsight's always a good thing, but I think there are strategies and conversations that we can apply now as parents, as educators, as workers, as aunties, and with our kids to try to get them to think about their future impact.

DANA SHEN: All right. Thank you very much, Nicole and Bec. Finally coming to you. And not that you have to have all the answers as a parent because we're all struggling with this, but is there any particular views that you'd like to share around that question about media and our children?

BEC TURNER: I'd say the same as Nicole. It scares me. And, anyone who knows me knows that I'm not particularly good with technology and I'm not on social media myself much. And I know that my kids understand more about this than me, and that's frightening because I'm one of their protectors, I guess. And, a couple of the things that probably worry me the most is the one is around attention span. And how I've noticed that changing for children, you know, that instant gratification that they get from technology and, then their ability to be able to focus and, and learn and take on information in the way that we traditionally have. The other one is probably around, just the, the hyper focus on, image and, what that does to self-esteem, to already, you know, vulnerable age groups, particularly teenagers and, yeah, there's some of the worries and I don't have any answers. I just guess, it is important for us as parents, as professionals, practitioners and educators, whatever we're doing that we're, making sure that we do try and keep up with what's out there so we can, can protect our children and we can keep them safe and empower them by teaching them how to keep themselves safe because they're so smart and they know more than us in a lot of instances.

So. Yeah.

DANA SHEN: Fantastic. Well, thank you so much, Jacqueline. Was there one more thing you'd like to add there?

JACQUELINE MCGOWAN-JONES: Look, I would I think the issue about media literacy is really critically important. We need to make sure our kids have got the right information and tools to make informed decisions for themselves, and they can't do that if they haven't got the learning. We know prohibition doesn't work. Just look at 1920s US prohibition of alcohol. And we're going to prohibit social media. We know that a lot of our kids in rural and remote areas or kids that are in vulnerable groups, LGBTQIA+ and our Aboriginal kids rely on some of the networks in social media that keep them safe, that give them support. So prohibition doesn't work. Telling your kids they can't do something, it's most likely making them want to do it even more. So media literacy is really important, but not just for kids. It's for us. As Bec said, I'm a real Luddite, like I'm no good with, just ask Nicole. She'll tell you. When was the last time I put something on Facebook? And so it is so important that we make ourselves aware and that we support our children and young people to be aware and understand and have the skills they need to make informed decisions for themselves.

DANA SHEN: Fantastic. Well, thank you again, Bec and Jacqueline and Nicole for this Extended Q&A session. And thank you to everyone that is joining again. We look forward to speaking to you in the future at our next session.