DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: Hi there, everyone. Welcome and thank you for joining us today for this webinar about violence against pets in the context of intimate partner violence and supporting victim survivors. I'm Dr Jasmine B. McDonald. I'm a Research Fellow here at the Australian Institute of Family Studies, or AIFS, and part of the team that created our policy and practice paper describing what we currently know from the evidence about the relationship between intimate partner violence and violence against family animals. The group of presenters in this webinar pay our respects to the traditional owners of country throughout Australia and recognise their continuing connection to lands and waters. We pay our respects to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures and to elders past and present. Here in Naarm, where the AIFS team is based, the traditional owners of country are the Wurundjeri Woiwurrung and the Bunurrung Boonwurrung peoples of the Kulin nations. 

Okay, I am going to dive into some housekeeping for us today. And you can eagerly anticipate meeting our three fantastic panellists. At the end of the webinar, there'll be a live Q &A. So, we'll speak for about 40-45 minutes, something like that. Then we'll have questions coming through throughout the webinar. That'll come up on my screen with some support from amazing folks on the back end. And in our last 10 to 15 minutes, we'll start answering some of those questions. So, our audience has a questions box in the GoToWebinar dashboard. If you want to write some questions for us, please do that. And our webinar today is recorded. That means that you'll be able to watch it again in another couple of weeks when it's released on the website. And you can also share it with other people that you think might be interested. In your dashboard for GoToWebinar, you'll also find a link for a handout of additional resources for today, and also for the bios of our presenters within the webinar. We can't cover all the most important points or all of the resources and so we've put together a resource sheet to stimulate your thinking and to do a little bit of further research and reading about the issues that we'll cover today. Right at the end of the webinar when it closes up when we're finished there's going to be a feedback survey that will pop up for you. We genuinely appreciate your time and feedback with that survey that helps us refine the content that we create and the way that we approach webinars, so please consider taking the time to provide feedback there. The content for today requires a sensitive content warning. It includes information about intimate partner violence and violence against animals. And across the content that we've linked to, but also in the discussion today, this means you know potentially aspects of sexual, physical and psychological abuse. The group of presenters cover a broad range of experiences and perspectives including experience of, lived experience through domestic violence. So, that's just a heads up to keep checking in with yourself, being kind to yourself. If one of the beauties of having a recorded webinar is that it's something you can visit later. So, take the space that you might need today and come back to the content later. And in addition, if you think you might like some additional support and contacts to reach out to, we've got some team today who are going to put in the chat some information for you to reach out to some support information there. 

Okay, so this webinar has been created as part of Child Family Community Australia webinar program and we create resources for practitioners who support families and children and we do a bunch of stakeholder engagement and try to find out from people supporting children and families across the country what are the topics that are most relevant to their work and then we go away and do a bunch of nerdy research to create resources that can be useful to work out evidence that's that will inform practice. And in last couple of years a topic that was really important coming through from our audience was coercive control and family domestic sexual violence more broadly. We consulted quite widely for that evidence package and we spoke to peak bodies, we spoke to researchers, we spoke to practitioners and out of that created a range of resources relating to technology facilitated coercive control so reproductive coercion and abuse and one of the messages that we kept hearing from stakeholders was that it's important to consider family animals and pets in this process as well. And that was something that really stood out as unique to us and an area with relatively low levels of awareness and some gaps in supports for victim survivors. So, in response to audience feedback and this identified need for increased awareness, we undertook a rapid literature review and developed a policy and practice paper for people working with children and families. And so the first member of our group today that I'll introduce is Kylie Butler, who was the lead researcher on that paper. Welcome, Kylie.

KYLIE BUTLER::

Thank you. Hi, everyone. So yeah, I've been a researcher at AIFS for about two years now, and I've got a background in social policy. I've also got quite a few years’ experience researching into human-animal interactions, and I've worked in Greyhound Rescue in the past as well. So yeah, I care really deeply about issues that affect families and I'm particularly interested in research about family, domestic and sexual violence and how to improve supports for people experiencing this. And I'm also really interested in anything to do with that human-animal bond and people's relationships with animals and animal welfare. So yeah, as Jaz said, we did a review of the literature about the relationship between violence against family animals and intimate partner violence last year and we put together publication for practitioners and the aim of that publication was to describe what this relationship between animal abuse in the home and intimate partner violence is, why it's something that's really important for us to be aware of and to help better understand the impacts of violence against animals in an intimate partner violence context and what can be done to strengthen support for people experiencing this. So, I feel like today's a really great opportunity to bring together some of that research background with the knowledge and research and experience that Jen and Monique bring from their work directly in this space. And it's really special to be on this panel with Jen and Monique.

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: Lovely. Thanks, Kylie. Our second group member in today's discussion is Jen Howard Jen's the founder and CEO of Safe Pets Safe Families, a charity founded in 2013. As often is the case, The concept of Safe Pets Safe Families was born out of Jen's own life experience, being a beloved pet owner and living through domestic violence. Jen, thank you for joining us today.

JEN HOWARD: Thank you for having me. Yeah, so I founded Safe Pets Safe Families after I experienced domestic violence myself. So I had to flee to a DV shelter with my kids and I couldn't take my dogs with me and I tried to reach out to like friends and family and no one could help me and I was putting myself at risk every day going back to the property to feed my dogs and I was paying like paying rent at the DV shelter and paying rent at the house that I that I fled from and I guess I could only do that for so long until the lease ran out and my dogs ended up at the pound and likely euthanized. And my dogs were like, I had them since puppies and they were eight years old at the time. And I had them for three years before I had my children and they were my children's first best friends as well. And so it really broke me. And I didn't really want, I didn't want anyone else to experience what I did. So, I yeah, founded what I thought was going to be a low key foster program. And I could never foresee how huge this, the need was. And there was such a sinister side to it as well after I'd done some research and yeah, so that's me.

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: Thank you, Jen. Thanks for creating the service that you needed so that you could support other folks. It's an absolute pleasure to have you here with us today. And our third group member today is Monique Dam. Monique is the CEO of Lucy's Project, a national charity that aims to improve the safety of people and animals experiencing domestic and family violence. Lucy's project collaborates across sectors, advocates for policy, program, and legislative change, promotes research and delivers education for workers. Thanks, Mon.

MONIQUE DAM: Thank you so much, Jaz. Hi, everyone, my name is Monique, and I've been the CEO at Lucy's project for just over six months. Previously, when I worked at the organisation, I led a cross-sector capacity building programme. My background is in policy and advocacy, and I've worked at Domestic Violence New South Wales as the advocacy and prevention manager, and in the New South Wales and Commonwealth governments on early childhood and legal assistance policy. So, I first learned about the issue of domestic and family violence perpetrated against animals while I was working at DV New South Wales. And I realized quite quickly this issue is often overlooked or made invisible even though it impacts on so many women, children and animals. And this is why at Lucy's project we're passionate about building a shared understanding across sectors that the safety and well-being of people and animals is interconnected and how to adopt an animal inclusive framework when responding to domestic and family violence. Next week we're holding a conference with over 30 speakers including Kylie and Jaz and we'd love you to join us. And in November, December and January. We're offering free education sessions to practitioners on how to recognise, respond and refer people and animals experiencing domestic and family violence. So, you can find the links to register in the chat box and the handout as well. 

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: Lovely, thanks Monique. How nice is it to be able to point to the next relevant event for folks who are here and interested? That's fantastic. I'll thank each of you for making the time to have a chat today. To start off, I was wondering if we could think about a description of what we're focusing on today. What does violence against family animals in an intimate partner violence context look like? And to start with I think I'll throw to you Kylie to provide some research context.

KYLIE BUTLER: No worries, I think this is such a, it's a good place to start because it's really important that we have an understanding of what exactly we're talking about when we say violence against family animals and intimate partner violence context. So, throughout the research literature there was no one like super clear consistent definition and I think that's because intimate partner violence related violence against animals can play out really differently from one situation to another. But what we're talking about is when a perpetrator uses violence or threats of violence against a family animal with the intention of intimidating manipulating or controlling their partner. So, this can look like things like a perpetrator abusing a family animal as a threat or demonstration of what might happen if their partner doesn't comply with the perpetrator's demands. It can look like a perpetrator harming a family pet because they're jealous of the relationship that their partner has with the pet and the attention that the pet gets. It can also look like controlling behaviours that tie in with things like financial and emotional abuse, so things such as withholding money for vet care, not letting someone feed or provide adequate shelter for the pet. And the perpetrator might do this with the knowledge that it's going to cause a lot of stress and anxiety to their partner and restrict their freedom to care for the animal in the way that they would like to or need to. So, these are some of the common examples that came up in the literature a lot. What we're seeing from all these examples is that it's an example of power, control, and coercion that perpetrators use where both people and family animals are subject to abuse. So, the perpetrator's leveraging these emotional connections that people have with their pets and using animals as a tool in intimate partner violence. I'd also just quickly like to mention here that there are some limitations to the research evidence and it is an emerging area of research. So, the majority of the studies we looked at focused on experiences within heterosexual relationships where the male was the perpetrator and the female was the victim survivor. Within these studies the animals most commonly focused on were like your common family pets, such as dogs and cats, but I really want to highlight that intimate partner violence-related violence against animals can occur in all types of relationships and that any animal that people have a relationship with that people feel that close connection to, whether it's big or small, can be targeted. This is something that's starting to be recognised more broadly, so the National Plan to End Violence Against Women and Children now includes animal abuse in their definition of coercive control. 

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: Thanks, Kylie. I really appreciate that context and to be thinking about some of the limitations with research as well, which is the beauty of having a diverse panel today to add to that. So, Jen, if I could invite you next to talk about what the problem that we're talking about here, what it looks like. 

JEN HOWARD: So, I guess, I just want to highlight the importance of animal-human bond and in situations. And I remember from my own experience when things were becoming unsafe and like sort of volatile and I can remember that my dogs were in the same room as my kids like and so my kids were like very upset and scared and my dogs would be right there with them upset and scared as well. And even sometimes when I was like maybe in the aftermath like I'd be on the crying and my dogs would be there as well. So it's the importance of like animals in victim survivors of domestic violence that most of the time like these pets are there for everything. You can tell your darkest secrets to them you can cry to them you can share everything and it's just like I guess like people like it's proven time and time again that women will delay leaving because of their pets. And so if you want to care about animals you need to care about people and if you want to care about people you need to care about pets and I think it's so important to recognise the link and how strong that bond is and sort of to be able to support people leaving.

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: There's really practical important things to keep in mind that you've mentioned there, Jen. Especially because not all the practitioners who are working with families will necessarily have had that experience of a bond themselves with a family pet, you know, it's not something that all people have. So being able to take that perspective of what it does mean when you have that bond and that's really powerful. And to, you know, you talk about that psychological emotional connection and how you mentioned like holding on the couch afterwards, that physical comfort that comes from animals as well. It's really powerful. Monique, I'll throw to you. Other aspects that you might like to add in describing what the problem is and what violence against animals in this context looks like.

MONIQUE DAM: Thanks, Jaz. And thank you, Jen, for sharing. So we know that domestic and family violence perpetrated against animals and people can include physical violence, sexual violence, psychological and emotional abuse, and also neglect. On today, our discussion will be focused on family animals, who we often refer to as companion animals or pets, and intimate partner violence. But it's really important to keep in mind that perpetrators will use violence against animals as a way to harm and control children and young people, too. And another thing to be aware of is that domestic and family violence is also perpetrated against assistance, farmed and wild animals and this has specific impacts on people with disability and people living in outer metropolitan and rural and regional areas as well. So, for instance the rapid review report that was recently released includes a case study of a woman with disability whose partner coerced and forced her to have sex with him by repeatedly using and threatening physical violence against her assistance dog. The National Risk Assessment Principles also recognise that cruelty and harm against animals can indicate the risk of future or more severe violence and is often used as a controlled tactic by perpetrators. Earlier this year it was so devastating to learn of the alleged murder of Molly Ticehurst and to learn that her 12-week-old puppy was allegedly killed by her former partner in the weeks prior to her death. And this is why it's so important to take animals' abuse seriously as a high-risk factor.

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: Thank you, Monique. Yeah, and seeing this kind of abuse or this aspect of family domestic and sexual violence as an indicator of the likelihood of further violence escalation of violence is it's a really important point that you make there. And I want to pick up on something that Jen you just raised. You know one of the key findings from the review, and as you've emphasized just now. is that fear and concern for the safety of animals can lead women who are experiencing family domestic and sexual violence to stay with perpetrators, to delay leaving or have the need to return to a violent situation. So, I think it'd be really nice if we could unpack that a little bit and think about some of the barriers and issues here. I might start with you first, Kylie, if that's OK.

KYLIE BUTLER: Sure. So, yeah, this was something that came up in the research time and time again. So, the majority of the research that we at involved qualitative studies, a lot of surveys and interviews with either women that had access to domestic and family violence services or practitioners working with them. And the studies were from a range of locations, so mostly Australia, New Zealand, the UK and the USA. And in all of these, almost all of these studies and across all of these locations, one of the impacts that came up really, really often was that, as Jen just mentioned, people who had experienced intimate violence where family animals were also harmed said that they often stayed with, delayed leaving or returned to perpetrators because of fears for the safety of their family animals. And with this, we see those physical, psychological and emotional impacts all interacting with each other. So, the fact that people are staying with delaying leaving or returning to perpetrators highlight some of those practical challenges. So, we already know that leaving a violent relationship is a really dangerous time. And when you add animals into the mix, that can increase the complexity of doing so. There's things around logistics, transport for animals, caring for animals, the increased cost of having animals to look after as well. And questions such as, you know, where can people find safe accommodation where they can bring their pets, or even temporary accommodation for pets while something more long term is sorted out where they can all be together again. And this speaks to people's real fears that it's not safe to leave family animals behind. So, there's a lot of examples in the research where animals that have been left with perpetrators have been subject to increased violence as a way to, you know, punish the victim survivor for leaving or to try and force them to return. And another point here is that even when that risk of physical violence is lower, women are often the primary caregivers of animals, so that risk of neglect can increase if the animals are left behind as well. And something that underpins this is that importance of the relationship between people and pets that we've already spoken a little bit to, so that comfort, support and friendship. But, you know, it's a, these are things that go both ways. So, we know that like animals are really dependent on us for their basic and emotional needs, but we're also quite dependent on them in that relationship as well. So, if you think about all these things, it's quite understandable that, you know, for a lot of people, it's not an option to leave without family animals. And that if there isn't any other option but to do so, this is really distressing and it can be really detrimental to the safety and recovery of both people and pets. It's also worth just as a final point to mention here that one thing that also comes up a lot in the research is that victim survivors who experience more severe intimate partner violence can be the most reluctant to leave family animals behind because the risk of violence towards the animals in these cases is often really really high in their absence. 

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: Thanks Kylie. Jen, could I throw to you next to add to those points and share from a kind of practical situation with the women and the families that you work with, that barrier to leaving dangerous situations.

JEN HOWARD: Yeah, it's so common like we deal with on a daily basis. Like just recently there was one client that was driving 40 minutes a day from the shelter back to feed a cat at the property. And we've just got like so many, there's so many examples that I could use, but it's so many people get, I guess like that's the risk of people returning as well because the perpetrator will sort of say like, if you don't return, this is what will happen to your animals. Or we'll just like leave your animal on the street or all sorts of things happen. I guess like for us, as an organization that provides temporary fostering for animals and things like that, some of the things that could help in those situations is better being prepared. So like, if there's like, if you've got a client that you're like that sort of planning to leave, just things like getting the animals to desexed or microchipped or vaccinated or things like that makes a huge difference into fostering or even boarding animals. Because there's not enough shelters that are pet friendly and to be able to take animals to, so a lot of the times when people need to go into motel accommodation or when they need to temporarily foster the animals, it's so important to help better their chances at getting fostering, I guess. And in SA, like we're not obviously nationally, but in SA, we do have lots of resources that can help with these sorts of things. So, anyone that's listening that's in SA, obviously you can reach out to us to get these practical sort of supports in place.

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: Lovely. Thank you, Jen. Mon, could I throw to you next to add to the discussion?

MONIQUE DAM: So, for many women and children, their animals are family to them and their animals may be their safe place and the source of unconditional love. And so for women and children who are experiencing violence, it's important for us as practitioners to remove the barriers to their safety and as Kylie and Jen have both highlighted, one of the biggest barriers is not being able to find a safe home together. We know many women delay leaving the perpetrator because they have very real and legitimate fears their animals are going to be harmed or killed if they leave them. So, for this reason some women will choose to live out of their cars with their children and animals until they can find a safe home. This is why it's so essential for women to be invited to share any concerns they might have about their children and animals and for those concerns to be listened to and validated by the workers that they engage with. It can be quite disempowering for women if they're told that they must leave their animals to seek safety for them and their children. And when women and children are forced to be separated from their animals, this can create additional anxiety, grief and trauma as well. And by contrast, if women and children and their animals are supported to stay together, this can support their healing and recovery journey. And this is really why we think it's so critical to provide support to women and children with animals that does respond to their specific needs.

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: Okay, I'm wondering if you don't mind, team. I want to go a little bit off script. We don't have a script today. This is how I give you a heads up. I'm going to ask you something you might not have anticipated me asking you. I'm wondering if you might be able to share your sense of how well acknowledged or aware of this issue folks might be in different So, I might throw to you first, Jen, and then to you, Mon, if you don't mind. Is this, Jen, do you think this is a problem people are aware of, especially in, I guess, family support services?

JEN HOWARD: I guess in, like, SA, like, I do feel like I've got a lot of contact with a lot of the DV services here, and it definitely comes up. But in some of the other, like I have come across like some client feedback from different places where they'll sort of be very stressed on the phone and things and saying that like their housing officer sort of said like, just get rid of the pet or yeah, it's sort of, I don't think everyone, like so many people are aware of it. We still, when we're out in like an events and at public events and things, it's still people say like all the time, like, wow, I never really thought about it until they're in that situation that they just don't think about it, I guess. And I guess a lot of people, when they like think about their pets themselves, they might have family or friends, but there's a lot of people that don't have family or friends for support as well. So, I still don't think it's widely known about or I think a lot of, there's still a lot of education needed.

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: Sure, yeah. And how about from your perspective, Monique?

MONIQUE DAM: Yeah, I think it's such a good question and I think it really does depend a lot. You know, sometimes we'll speak to workers who've been on the process issue for a very long time, for decades. And for decades, they've tried to find really innovative ways to support people with animals and women and children with animals by connecting in with their local services, trying to find if there is a local animal rescue or shelter that might support the animals of women and children experiencing domestic and family violence. On the other hand, just last week, I was speaking to someone who was a caseworker in a homelessness service, and she expressed that when she first came across the issue, it was completely new for her. She hadn't been aware of it before, and that there's still so much work that needs to be done in order to improve access to supports for people and animals experiencing violence, to record that often at the service she worked at, that when people called and they did express that they have animals they're concerned about, their expectation would be that they would leave the animals behind in order to be able to access the service. But I think something that needs a lot of attention, and it would be incredible if those of you who are with us today could think about reporting data when people are turned away from services because the service is not able to accommodate them. Whenever I have spoken with government and non-government services that provide supports for people and who are experiencing domestic and family violence, the case workers are saying there are people who will decline services, who will decline support because they're not able to be assisted together with their animals and I'm not sure if anywhere we're really capturing that data.

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: It's a really practical point and call to action. Was someone else going to add something there? Did I cut you off, Jen?

JEN HOWARD: That's okay. I was going to say that we have done a little bit of feedback surveys in just asking what people would have done if they didn't have our services. And I can't give the exact number, but I do know majority of people said there's no way would have left if they couldn't take their animals with them. I think it's very important data to capture because there's so many people that if they don't even think there's a service available, they won't even think about leaving. 

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: That's a really important point to raise. Thank you, Jen. All right, folks, we've covered what the practice issue is, what violence against family animals looks like in this context. We've talked about this being a barrier to accessing supports or to leaving a violent situation. I wonder if we could now shift the focus to insights that you might be able to share to improve the quality of support that practitioners might provide families. So, I'm going to ask you to speak next, Kylie, if you don't mind.

KYLIE BUTLER: Yeah, no worries. So, I mean, this is one of the reasons why I get really excited about qualitative research is because you get some really great insights that, you know, it can only really be captured by having those kind of in-depth conversations with people. And there were a lot of recommendations about improving support or also just where there are gaps in support that came out of the literature. So, I'm just going to pick a couple of them because there's not enough time to talk to everything. But this kind of goes back to what Jen and Monique have mentioned before about women being a bit hesitant or not wanting to disclose abuse against family animals and that often they wouldn't do so unless they were asked directly. So, there were a few reasons behind this that came out of the research evidence. One being that there's a fear that practitioners won't understand the importance of the animals in their lives or take the abuse seriously because it's happening to an animal and not a person. It was also in one of the newer papers that came out this year, so since we produced our publication talking about women being afraid that if they do disclose abuse happening to their animals, that they'll be separated from their animals, either the animal being relinquished to a service or being, you know, forced or pressured to leave the situation and leave the animal behind because how dangerous the situation is in the home. There's also another point here is that perpetrators often make women feel as though the abuse happening to the animals is their fault. So, there's a lot of guilt or shame experienced by people about not being able to protect their animals and that the animal is also experiencing violence in the home, which is another factor that can impact whether people will speak openly about what's happening. So, from these points, one of the things that came through which Monique's already mentioned is the importance of including questions about animals at intakes of asking people about, you know, trying to get a really full picture of what's happening in the home and directly asking about animals. There's also just very, you know, broadly a need for more support with animal inclusive risk assessment and safety planning was something that a lot of women felt would really help them, especially so if they're considering leaving a relationship. So, this could be things like, you know, safety checklists, thinking about what they would need to take if they can leave and take their pet with them. And also in need for just more streamlined information about where support can be accessed, what type of animal inclusive support is available. So those are some of the key things that came up about areas where the quality of support that people receive could strengthened.

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: And Kylie, with those, that practical checklist, it sounds like you're talking about things just like collars or leashes or blankets and bedding, these kinds of things.

KYLIE BUTLER: Yeah, also, you know, if you've got a pet that's on medication, just think about what are those essential things that you would need to take with you in the moment.

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: Awesome. Thank you, Kylie. Jen, could you add to this in thinking about ways that supports could improved for families leaving violent situations.

JEN HOWARD: Yeah so I did touch base on it a little bit before around thinking about like because I guess like from our perspective when we're providing foster care we like animals that are not desexed are much harder to place with foster carers so and I guess that there is resources out there of like free desexing programs and stuff like And we actually are in the middle of updating our website and we're going to have a resource on there that will highlight a lot of the services around Australia. So we've been putting together, I've had a team of social workers been working with us and we've been sort of mapping out Australia and just seeing what services are available to people. So hopefully that will go live really soon. And it's something that we're really excited about. And I guess there's like, if you need to access to like emergency boarding, obviously vaccinations are really important. So, I guess the questions about animals needs to happen really early. Like, it needs to be one of the first questions that happen or communication that happens because I guess, yeah, like if you, basically we fail to save people when we don't include animals. And I guess these questions are really important at the start to know the status of the animal like are they just desexed are they vaccinated are they friendly and just knowing like the options. Because like it's sort of yeah you need to have like a bit of a multi-layered response I guess like not every shelter is going to be pet friendly not every person is going to go into a shelter they might be going to a motel um there's all different circumstances so it is a very um case by case sort of situation sometimes. And so I guess like asking those key questions and once you know those answers to those key questions then you can start thinking of solutions, I guess. Yeah. And you can even like for like for shelters and stuff as well, you can definitely connect like connect with your local vets and things like that as well. And maybe ask the question like, do they have capacity to help in an emergency situation for 48 hours or something? Or I guess like when someone's ready to leave sometimes there's a very small window and so sometimes it might be good to get those pets out straight away so you remove any of those barriers of those risks and yeah I think that's um that's important.

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: Really practical and really thinking about that creatively about the resources that could be drawn on there. It's interesting I reflect on my own mental health and social work training, we did genograms of families and animals were never included and you know until recently that's something that I never really questioned even though I always grew up with animals and had really close attachments to them myself. So, you can see how they're this invisible dynamic within the family that if that's not included from the start there's a lot that we're going to miss and a big part of the human clients that we're working with and their emotional and physical wellbeing is being missed and like each of you have raised means that potentially I'm missing the opportunity for disclosure and important conversations to reduce the risk for people.

JEN HOWARD: Yeah, I might just add that lately we've been, so part of our team, we've got a social worker who's doing some extra studies at the moment and we're sort of, I guess we've been looking at the concept of veterinary social work for a long time now and we are putting it, we've been putting it into practice. And we've been providing like social services for a long time for people and pets in crisis but veterinary social work, there's like an extra course that people can do like a post-grad certificate for social workers and it's just learning about the human-animal bond. It's pretty much as simple as that. And it just really empowers you to get to incorporate animals into your practice because like when you are becoming a social worker, but not just a social worker, anyone in human services or social services, like to be able to have that person-centred approach or that holistic approach, it's like you got to care about the things that people care about as well. So, you need to care about the animals people care about to be able to give them a full service. I think it's really important to validate people's feelings and yeah really really reach what they care about and yeah the animals are so important to people that are going through trauma and experiencing a crisis.

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: That sounds like a real call for a holistic approach, a family systems approach and making sure animals are included in that. Yeah, Mon. I'd like to invite you to add to the discussion here, picking back, you know, continuing the thread of ways to improve support for family and animals.

MONIQUE DAM: And thank you so much for everything you've shared, Kylie and Jen. I definitely agree and just want to reiterate that people may not disclose that they live with animals or that they have those fears and concerns unless they're directly asked during the intake process and throughout the process of supporting them as well. And this is why it's so critical that animals are included when that animal abuse is asked about during risk assessment, because there might be additional risks, there might be high risks to the safety of women and children and the animals that need to be addressed as part of that safety planning process. And it is important to ask about different kinds of animals too, because I know that in some states and territories, you know, the risk assessment, standard risk assessment forms or approaches do vary and sometimes they do only refer to companion animals or pets. But as I mentioned earlier, violence might be perpetrated against assistance animals as well. For people living in outer metropolitan and regional areas, violence might also be perpetrated against farmed and wild animals. And all of that is important to ask about to really build a full picture of the risks to that family, to the women and children and the animals as well. And as I did mention earlier, Lucy's project is offering free education sessions. This is, these are some of the things that we cover, including, you know, animal inclusive risk assessment and safety planning. And you can sign up for that, via the links in the handouts and the chat box as well.

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: Amazing, thank you, Monique. I think we have a really solid foundation here with the points that we've covered to now shift to some of the questions that are coming through from the audience. Thank you for your amazing questions coming through. I can see a lot of engagement with the things that our brilliant group are sharing today. I want to pick up on this thread that's around the legal side of the situations that folks are facing. So, one of the questions we have from the audience is about information that we can share when it comes to the legal side of these situations. And this is something that we briefly spoke about when we're planning for the webinar because registration questions also were related to this area. And it felt like the conclusion that we came to was that it's very complex. It's quite a challenging aspect of practice. I would like maybe to throw to you first, Monique, if you could get us started. What are some of the key issues and challenges that you think are important for the audience to be aware of in terms of the legal components here?

MONIQUE DAM: So, there are lots of different legal issues that plan to arise when domestic and family violence has been perpetrated against people and animals. That's why it's so critical to support women and children to disclose if there is violence happening against animals and to seek legal advice wherever possible to understand what legal protections are available as well as, you know, what other legal issues need to be addressed as part of the safety planning and support. There are differences in each state and territory in terms of how people and animals can be protected under domestic and family violence legislation. In New South Wales animal abuse is recognised as a form of coercive control which is a criminal offence as of the first of July this year. Perpetrators of violence against animals may also be able to be charged with animal cruelty offences and again legislation around animal cruelty does vary across the different jurisdictions. Under the law, animals are considered property and perpetrators may claim legal ownership of the animals as another way to exert power and control. And some of you may have heard that the Commonwealth Attorney General has proposed changes to the Family Law Act. And these changes would require family law courts to consider any history of actual or threatened cruelty or abuse towards a companion animal when they're making decisions about companion animals as a form of property. But the draft or the bill that's been proposed, it would also require the family law courts to take into account other factors like who paid for the care of the animal. And since we know that perpetrators use economic and financial abuse, we really think that the proposed law or the changes that are made to the Family Law Act should be focused on that the safety of women and children and animals is the most important consideration when family law courts are making decisions about animals as a form of property. 

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: Yeah, thank you Monique. Jen are there other points that you'd like to add from the experiences that you've had?

JEN HOWARD: Yeah so we've definitely come up with lots of situations where like they're just the microchips and the registration and then conflicts between microchips and registration as well. Say like with like whether the registration for a council is actually they're like the true or accurate owner or a microchip is a true accurate owner. And so these are some things it's a good point because like in that planning process as well it's probably a good question to see whether the animal is microchipped and who it's microchipped to or it's registered to so then there could be some room to hopefully make some changes or microchip the animal. But yeah, it is a complex area around ownerships and because pets are classed as property as well, it does make it complicated sometimes because it's a bit more of a civil sort of case sometimes, I think, I believe. But yeah, it's definitely something that comes up all the time, especially with microchips and registration.

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: It's important, I think, for, you know, there's certain concrete things we can share throughout the discussion, but just normalising that it is complex, that this is tricky and working with families is tricky, adding animals adds another aspect to this, so all of those insights are really valued. I am having a look at the chat and I'm seeing people are really excited, Jen, about the veterinary social work and they're googling and trying to find out where they could find more information about this. Do you have any further info that you can share where would be good for people to have a look? Some folks are saying they can see it's available in I think it was maybe in some courses in Queensland but could you share any other info about that?

JEN HOWARD: So, the course that like our team were doing was the one that was in America it's the Kentucky Tennessee University I think it's called and that's it's a post-grad certificate that you can do. We are getting some changes coming here it isn't quite available here yet though but there is like in the University of Adelaide, there was a human-animal bond course with, I think there was something available in that uni, but I can share some things afterwards if that's available or not, I'm not sure.

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: Yeah, absolutely.

JEN HOWARD: But they can definitely reach out to Safe Pets Safe Families and we can send, I don't mind people reaching out for resources, that's fine as well. But yeah, it's a, when our website goes live like the updates it will all be on there so that should be happening in the next couple of weeks. 

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: Yeah lovely, lovely. So yeah feel free to reach out and we'll follow up with that information that's really it's a real delight to see people interested in that and wanting more information there Okay, my gosh, it's 1.48, folks. The time has gone so quickly. Your passion and your knowledge is, I feel very privileged to have this conversation and I can see from the chat the engagement that folks at home or sitting in their offices are also very engaged, so just a pause to reflect on that for a sec. Okay, I think the next thing I'd like to do is to pick up on one of the lines of inquiry from the chat that's about referral pathways. So, the audience have kind of raised this question of how can they identify animal-friendly services to link the families that they're supporting with those services. This is kind of interesting for us, Kylie, right? While we were doing the research, often at the end of CFCA resources, we like to have a link of where people can go to. And we've found this quite tricky. Do you kind of care to expand on that?

KYLIE BUTLER: We did say, yeah, as you mentioned, we wanted to include a list of those resources or support services at the end of our publication. We spent quite a long time searching, like searching state by state for programs, kind of looking specifically for programs that could help both people and pets who are experiencing intimate partner violence, related violence where there was animal abuse occurring as well. The majority of what we found were fostering services for animals, so RSPCA programs or programs run by other animal rescue or welfare organisations that could help with temporary accommodation for pets of people experiencing violence. And we know that these services are so valuable. We also know that these services are often really limited in their capacity and a lot of animal welfare organisations are volunteer run as well. What we couldn't find was any kind of comprehensive directory or list that kind of shed a bit more light about which domestic family and sexual violence services could help with referral or included animals, had animal inclusive aspects to the support that they could offer. Yeah, when I was looking at this, I kind of wondered if I was missing something. But what I also thought about was that if I was struggling to find this information, it's likely that practitioners may also not quite know where to look. And it also made me think about how difficult it must be for people that are experiencing this to kind work out even where to begin with trying to access formal supports or even just knowing what or if anything is available out there.

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: That's a really good point because we have the calmness of the lovely AIFS office to sit and to deep dive and do focused work on this and we found it tricky to find information so that that empathy and perspective taking you take their Kylie's is really important when people are trying to find information quickly and they're at a risk of danger, that that makes, we need to make information really accessible and really easy to find, yeah. Mon, I think in your work, you've similarly found that it's not clear which services exist and how to access them. I'm wondering if you might kind of share the lessons that you and your team have learnt in the process and some tips for the audience to keep in mind.

MONIQUE DAM: Definitely. I think there's just so much more work to be done. Lucy's project will continue to advocate for domestic and family violence services to be able to support people with animals from across Australia, as well as for animal welfare services to be able to care for animals who are not able to be housed together with their families until they can be reunited safely. For example, I think one of the reasons why it can feel like it's really hard to find services that will support people and animals is because they are far and few between. In New South Wales, following some advocacy by Domestic Violence New South Wales and Lucy's Project and other key organisations and politicians, the New South Wales government committed to making new refuges animal inclusive and some of those refuges have now been completed. So these are the core cluster refuges that those of you in New South whales may know of, and it's really exciting to see that more human and children can now access the supports they need to be safe together with their animals. And we're really keen to see all new refuges across the country being built to be more animal inclusive and for existing refuges to be supported to be more animal inclusive too. But until that happens, there is a lot that individual services can do, and it's been credible to some of the services we've engaged with in the past to learn about the work that they've done, to collaborate with local councils, to collaborate with animal welfare organisations, with the veterinary services as Jen suggested earlier, to really think of creative solutions to support people and animals experiencing violence. For instance, we've previously worked with the DV service to connect them with their local council run animal shelter. The animal shelter had come across this issue before, in terms of they were aware of people and animals experiencing domestic and family violence. And so when there was this kind of opportunity to collaborate with their local DV service, they were very happy and moved quite quickly to put in place systems to provide emergency housing for animals experiencing domestic and family violence. And we were able to support that service, the domestic violence service and the animal shelter to set up that partnership and to put in place some policies and processes and think about the safety considerations too. But of course, you know, without us having been involved, there are many services who are doing this already and it's just incredible to see the passion of petitioners for making sure that people and animals can access the supports they need to be safe.

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: Thank you, Monique. Really appreciate that. Lots of really important points that you've there. Jen, is there anything else you'd like to add to that and thinking about referral pathways?

JEN HOWARD: Yeah, so I guess we get lots of interstate callers, so even though we are in SA, we get lots of interstate callers and we do, we have sort of, we did a lot of work in like mapping a lot of what we could find and then I've had some social work students work with us at the moment to do that mapping. And so we are building, we are building a resource to be able to do that. But I guess like in SA we do provide those services, we provide foster services, we provide vet care and emergency boarding and all the services that I guess that we that people and pets in crisis need. We were fortunate enough to just recently get a contract where we are going to be working over the next three years to help DV shelters become pet friendly. And sometimes there might be some services that might not necessarily be able to have pets on site. But being pet friendly is not always about having pets on site. It might be other things that places can do as well. So I definitely encourage anyone in SA that is in a DV shelter, because we're going to be working with a lot of DV shelters in SA and then with a view to expand to Australia-wide eventually. And that's to help DV shelters to resource them to become pet friendly. So it's a similar project that was in America that works with an organization over there and the same funding body and they've come to Australia. So with the with the view to expand. So that was something really exciting and it's only sort of just happened. So yeah definitely reach out and see what we can see what we can do. Yeah, so it's definitely a needed because even we, like we were finding it hard as well to find like places because we had so many interstate callers and so many services bringing us and yeah, we actually struggled as well at the start to find services available. And like Monique said, they are far and few between as well.

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: Sure. Yeah. What a fantastic project and fantastic output to be created and really great experience for those students to be involved with as well. That's really cool, Jen. You mentioned the word mapping and that has triggered my brain to bring up something from the chat. Someone, one of our practitioners in the audience is suggesting in thinking laterally that you could look at motel mapping databases and filter by which ones might allow pets. And that could be a good kind of short-term solution. This is a really nice tip, appreciate that, from one of our audience members. I was at a talk yesterday by Jocelyn, the CEO of Macaulay, and would just note one of the points that she mentioned was that at times where there's, you know, like big race events or sporting or music events that sometimes these resources aren't accessible. So to keep that in mind as well, but otherwise a really handy one to think about. So, yeah, thanks again. Good to crowdsource information. We probably need to round out. It's been a fantastic conversation. I wonder if I could get you to go around. I might start with Kylie and if you could just really briefly, it could be reiterating or it could be a new point. What's a key takeaway that you'd like the audience to take from today?

KYLIE BUTLER: I think a key takeaway for me is something I thought about constantly while I was doing research is how much it highlights the importance of family animals in people's lives and we probably think a lot more about the benefits and there are so many benefits and we should be thinking about these but there can also be extra challenges or costs that come from having and caring for family animals especially in a situation like an intimate part of violence situation. And I think I just want to say that what I've learned from the research is just how important is to recognise that violence against family animals can be a red flag to other forms of abuse happening in the home, and that if we can include animals in care plans, take disclosure of animal abuse seriously, think about how different sectors can work together a bit more, but just from a very general level, include pets in conversations, because these can be really valuable starting points to supporting people, to building relationships with people, and to helping both people and their animals be safer and feel supported.

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: Amazing, thank you, Kylie. Jen, key takeaway from you today?

JEN HOWARD: Yeah, I guess it's just highlighting how important, I think I've said in earlier conversations before as well that because we work with a lot of mental health workers from hospital and other things and whatever, and sometimes we get feedback because like when you care about someone's pet it's almost like it's an extension of that person and like so you can you build rapport really quickly with people when you care about their pets something so important to them and I think it's just yeah out-the-box thinking as well I'd like to add that just think out the box I think the whole of Safe Pets Safe Families was sort of supporting people and pets and really just having a go at finding solutions for people and their pets. I think that's so important.

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: Yeah. Lovely. Thank you, Jen. And Mon, your final takeaway for the audience today.

MONIQUE DAM: I just think it's so important to adopt an animal-inclusive response to domestic and family violence and we can remind that if animals are at risk then women and children are at risk. And the safety of people and animals is interconnected.

DR JASMINE B MACDONALD: Lovely. Thank each of you for your time today. Absolute privilege and lovely to have a combination of such insights and experience. We really appreciate it. Again, I just want to shout out to the audience. This is recorded. It'll be available in two weeks. Please take the time to fill out the survey at the end so that we can incorporate what works for you and the things that you're interested in and the formats you're interested in and the webinars that we create. I'd like to thank the AIFS team behind the scenes that make this possible. Thank you very much. And thank you for joining us, the audience today. You're the reason we create these webinars and we really hope it was useful. We'll see you next time.